You’re not allowed in women’s spaces. If you took the time to pay attention to what the ruling means, you can no longer infringe on men’s rights by entering their spaces, but you also can’t come into women’s because of your decision to pretend to be a man. You have to use third unisex spaces.
That's not quite accurate. Service providers are allowed to exclude women who pass as men only as a "proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim" i.e. if her appearance is likely to cause alarm or distress to other users and the service providers must provide an alternative. But it's not true that trans-identifying women can never use female designated spaces.
The EHRC have already explained that means trans people should be using third spaces when it comes to bathrooms, changing rooms etc. and that they can likely even be excluded from services such as women only rape crisis centres.
Crucially, TiFs and TRAs can stop pretending *anybody* is “forced” to use single sex spaces. Nobody is forced to use them. Women can opt out of using women’s spaces - and they do, all of the time; and trans identifying women have certainly opted out - but men cannot opt into women’s spaces. That’s not how it works.
Nobody would “force” Lars into the women’s bathrooms. We are not abusers. However, Lars cannot violate men’s boundaries either.
Again, your first paragraph isn't entirely accurate.
What the EHRC have NOT said is:
1. That trans-identifying women are "not allowed" to use women's spaces, as you stated in your first post.
2. That trans-identifying people "should be using third spaces", as you claimed in your second post. They also did not say "they can likely even be excluded from services such as women only rape crisis centres."
In my first post, I laid out what the EHRC HAVE said. Crucially, excluding people from spaces designated for their sex can only be done "proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim". This could mean a masculinised woman being excluded from a GROUP counselling session for female rape victims but she can't be refused a one-to-one session at a rape crisis centre.
They also said trans-identifying people cannot be left without a service or facility that is provided for everyone else so service providers should provide third spaces where possible.
Yes, they have. They went to the press explaining all of that. She can’t use women’s spaces because of her appearance and needs to find a third space. They also said she can be excluded from women’s only services. Stop spreading disinformation.
This woman is responsible for drawing up the guidelines. Read it carefully. Trans identifying people have to use third spaces in many situation especially if it’s not immediately obvious they’re their birth sex. And good. That’s exactly how the law should be. Their choice to assume a false identity should never be anyone else’s problem.
I'll try to make this as simple as I can. Everything I have said in my posts accurately reflects what is written in the judgment and in the EHRC interim guidance. The Times article written by Akua says exactly the same thing.
The bit you are repeatedly failing to get is that the burden is not on the trans-identifying woman but on the service provider. You keep saying "she can't use women's spaces because of her appearance". NOWHERE does it say that.
From Akua's article: "the Equality Act ALLOWS trans men (biological females) to be excluded from the women’s facilities (on grounds of appearance)". It does NOT say the Act PROHIBITS them from using those spaces. When you say to Lars "You’re not allowed in women’s spaces", you are misrepresenting the law.
To put it another way, service providers do NOT have to exclude trans identifying women from single sex services if they DON'T WANT TO but if they do want to, as Akua says, "lawful solutions that preserve dignity and enable the full participation of trans people in public life must be found. An obvious one is to provide additional mixed-sex spaces alongside single-sex ones."
For the last time, the burden is on service providers to provide a third space if they've a mind to, not on Lars to go looking for one.
And you’re completely incorrect. The EHRC have stated women like Lars can no longer use women’s single sex spaces, which is fine presumably as she has clearly expressed she doesn’t want to and for some reason bizarrely thinks she’ll be forced to. She will not be forced to and in fact, she’s not supposed to use them. That was very clearly stated. Third, unisex spaces are the only suitable option for those who have altered their appearance this dramatically. YOU stop spreading disinformation.
She can’t come into women’s spaces. These are safe spaces and her presence would create problems. She can’t go into men’s because men are human beings and they have rights too. These people are about to find out that their lifestyle choice comes with consequences and they’ve self-excluded from single sex spaces when they chose to assume a fake identity as the opposite sex.
I feel sorry for any other person who is so unhappy they put themselves through this process. That said, there are only two sexes and a performance of the opposite one in the binary, doesn't magically endow those specific sex-based rights.
It looks like you're regurgitating all the worst arguments and not allowing yourself to think for yourself.
You know that you are in fact a woman, so you know that in fact the men that call themselves trans women are in fact men.
The question is, do women and girls have the right to spaces free from men? If not, why not?
If, as you say it’s because we are hateful bigots, why does that mean we should be forced to have ‘trans women,’ who you acknowledge are men, in our spaces? Why doesn't our consent matter?
You are free to believe whatever you like, I'm certainly not stopping you, but what gives you the right to force your subjective and highly ideological beliefs onto others?
But also, how have you still not heard of autogynephilia?
Try listening to that inner, nagging voice once in a while, it will serve you well.
Women don't want men - whatever they "identify" as - in our spaces. This is not just about fear of assault, it's about feeling comfortable and not embarrassed. It's about prioritising our feelings over the feelings of entitled men.
That said, trans-identifying men are no different from other men: some are good, some are bad. Some of the bad ones are responsible for the vilest crimes imaginable. Of those who are in prison, a far higher proportion are in for sex crimes than the rest of the male prison population.
Some women and girls have been molested by trans-identifying men in what should be women-only spaces. Katie Dolatowski violated and traumatised a ten-year-old girl. How many more such cases does there need to be for you to care more about the victims than the offenders?
You’re not allowed in women’s spaces. If you took the time to pay attention to what the ruling means, you can no longer infringe on men’s rights by entering their spaces, but you also can’t come into women’s because of your decision to pretend to be a man. You have to use third unisex spaces.
That's not quite accurate. Service providers are allowed to exclude women who pass as men only as a "proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim" i.e. if her appearance is likely to cause alarm or distress to other users and the service providers must provide an alternative. But it's not true that trans-identifying women can never use female designated spaces.
The EHRC have already explained that means trans people should be using third spaces when it comes to bathrooms, changing rooms etc. and that they can likely even be excluded from services such as women only rape crisis centres.
Crucially, TiFs and TRAs can stop pretending *anybody* is “forced” to use single sex spaces. Nobody is forced to use them. Women can opt out of using women’s spaces - and they do, all of the time; and trans identifying women have certainly opted out - but men cannot opt into women’s spaces. That’s not how it works.
Nobody would “force” Lars into the women’s bathrooms. We are not abusers. However, Lars cannot violate men’s boundaries either.
Again, your first paragraph isn't entirely accurate.
What the EHRC have NOT said is:
1. That trans-identifying women are "not allowed" to use women's spaces, as you stated in your first post.
2. That trans-identifying people "should be using third spaces", as you claimed in your second post. They also did not say "they can likely even be excluded from services such as women only rape crisis centres."
In my first post, I laid out what the EHRC HAVE said. Crucially, excluding people from spaces designated for their sex can only be done "proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim". This could mean a masculinised woman being excluded from a GROUP counselling session for female rape victims but she can't be refused a one-to-one session at a rape crisis centre.
They also said trans-identifying people cannot be left without a service or facility that is provided for everyone else so service providers should provide third spaces where possible.
I agree with the rest of your second post.
Yes, they have. They went to the press explaining all of that. She can’t use women’s spaces because of her appearance and needs to find a third space. They also said she can be excluded from women’s only services. Stop spreading disinformation.
This woman is responsible for drawing up the guidelines. Read it carefully. Trans identifying people have to use third spaces in many situation especially if it’s not immediately obvious they’re their birth sex. And good. That’s exactly how the law should be. Their choice to assume a false identity should never be anyone else’s problem.
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/ill-informed-challenges-to-supreme-court-decision-help-nobody-g2wmcgl66?fbclid=IwQ0xDSwKiYXtleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHiE48_e33l9DgtCaGqpKiiXWfKbJw7bd0zy1ZzMtECft3aWEcFyDPxyb0SoL_aem_NIDzIGYxY9E8RMePOQOYkg
I'll try to make this as simple as I can. Everything I have said in my posts accurately reflects what is written in the judgment and in the EHRC interim guidance. The Times article written by Akua says exactly the same thing.
The bit you are repeatedly failing to get is that the burden is not on the trans-identifying woman but on the service provider. You keep saying "she can't use women's spaces because of her appearance". NOWHERE does it say that.
From Akua's article: "the Equality Act ALLOWS trans men (biological females) to be excluded from the women’s facilities (on grounds of appearance)". It does NOT say the Act PROHIBITS them from using those spaces. When you say to Lars "You’re not allowed in women’s spaces", you are misrepresenting the law.
To put it another way, service providers do NOT have to exclude trans identifying women from single sex services if they DON'T WANT TO but if they do want to, as Akua says, "lawful solutions that preserve dignity and enable the full participation of trans people in public life must be found. An obvious one is to provide additional mixed-sex spaces alongside single-sex ones."
For the last time, the burden is on service providers to provide a third space if they've a mind to, not on Lars to go looking for one.
Stop spreading disinformation.
And you’re completely incorrect. The EHRC have stated women like Lars can no longer use women’s single sex spaces, which is fine presumably as she has clearly expressed she doesn’t want to and for some reason bizarrely thinks she’ll be forced to. She will not be forced to and in fact, she’s not supposed to use them. That was very clearly stated. Third, unisex spaces are the only suitable option for those who have altered their appearance this dramatically. YOU stop spreading disinformation.
She can’t come into women’s spaces. These are safe spaces and her presence would create problems. She can’t go into men’s because men are human beings and they have rights too. These people are about to find out that their lifestyle choice comes with consequences and they’ve self-excluded from single sex spaces when they chose to assume a fake identity as the opposite sex.
Btw, I made a video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbzwLBKUqGk
I don’t care about your video I care about the EHRCs interpretation of the law.
I feel sorry for any other person who is so unhappy they put themselves through this process. That said, there are only two sexes and a performance of the opposite one in the binary, doesn't magically endow those specific sex-based rights.
It looks like you're regurgitating all the worst arguments and not allowing yourself to think for yourself.
You know that you are in fact a woman, so you know that in fact the men that call themselves trans women are in fact men.
The question is, do women and girls have the right to spaces free from men? If not, why not?
If, as you say it’s because we are hateful bigots, why does that mean we should be forced to have ‘trans women,’ who you acknowledge are men, in our spaces? Why doesn't our consent matter?
You are free to believe whatever you like, I'm certainly not stopping you, but what gives you the right to force your subjective and highly ideological beliefs onto others?
But also, how have you still not heard of autogynephilia?
Try listening to that inner, nagging voice once in a while, it will serve you well.
Women don't want men - whatever they "identify" as - in our spaces. This is not just about fear of assault, it's about feeling comfortable and not embarrassed. It's about prioritising our feelings over the feelings of entitled men.
That said, trans-identifying men are no different from other men: some are good, some are bad. Some of the bad ones are responsible for the vilest crimes imaginable. Of those who are in prison, a far higher proportion are in for sex crimes than the rest of the male prison population.
Some women and girls have been molested by trans-identifying men in what should be women-only spaces. Katie Dolatowski violated and traumatised a ten-year-old girl. How many more such cases does there need to be for you to care more about the victims than the offenders?